Rep. Trey Gowdy Questions Fmr. IRS Commissioner Doug Shulman

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[Rep. Trey Gowdy Questions Fmr. IRS Commissioner Doug Shulman]

[Harold Watson "Trey" Gowdy III (August 22, 1964)] Source: LYBIO.net
Thank you Mr. Chairman, Mr. Shulman, when you learned that Conservative groups were being targeted by the IRS for discriminatory treatment, what did you do?

[Doug Shulman]
When I learned the existence of a BOLO list, in that same conversation or right around that time, I also learned a couple of things 1) it was being stopped. So that –

[Trey Gowdy] Source: LYBIO.net
Alright – who told you that it was being stopped?

[Doug Shulman]
That’s Steven Miller my deputy.

[Trey Gowdy]
Alright did you investigate further? Can you give me the name of a single person who was involved in the original decision to target conservative groups for disparate treatment?

[Doug Shulman]
I’m — I’m not aware of those names.

[Trey Gowdy]
Why can’t you give me a name?

[Doug Shulman]
So that… Uh, at the same time that I learned and that it was being stopped, I was, um, also told that the inspector general, uh, was aware of it.

[Trey Gowdy]
Mr. Shulman, is the inspector general the only person who can investigate wrongdoing within the IRS?

[Doug Shulman]
Um, my, uh general practice –

[Trey Gowdy]
Can you answer my question and then explain! Is the inspector general only entity who can investigate wrong doing?

[Doug Shulman]
Um, Congress can investigate and a number of others.

[Douglas Shulman] Source: LYBIO.net
How about you – can you do it? The practice in the Internal Revenue Service that I inherited? And the one that I operate?

[Trey Gowdy]
So if there is inappropriate conduct being done on your watch in the IRS, then that inappropriate conduct can last as long as the inspector general’s investigation lasts. Is that what you’re telling me? That you’re not going to step in and stop it?

[Douglas Shulman]
No – what I’m telling you –

[Trey Gowdy]
If there’s someone wielding a knife in the parking lot, are you going to call the inspector general? Are you going to wait until his or her investigation is over before you stop it?

[Douglas Shulman]
When I was told about this, these allegation um, I was also told that that they were being stopped. So that the inappropriate criteria were not being used anymnore.

[Trey Gowdy]
Despite the seriousness and potential criminality of that conduct, you didn’t investigate it yourself at all?

[Douglas Shulman]
So the procedures that I inherited and that my general practice.

[Trey Gowdy]
Mr. Shulman this is gonna go much quicker if you answer yes or no and then you can explain. Did you do anything to verify that the practice, as insidious as it was, was stopped?

[Doug Shulman]
The, uh, inspector general was gonna be looking into it, and that’s what investigations —

[Trey Gowdy]
Is it that you “can’t say yes or no” or you’re just choosing not to say yes or no? Can you answer the question: Did you do anything, personally, to make sure that this insidious discriminatory practice was stopped? Yes or no?

[Doug Shulman]
At the time that I learned about it, I also learned two things. The first was that it was being stepped and the second was that the Inspector General was going to look at –

[Trey Gowdy]
And what did you do to verify that it was stopped?

[Doug Shulman]
The responsible deputy of the Internal Revenue Service told me it was being stopped. I had no reason to believe otherwise. And I think —

[Trey Gowdy] Source: LYBIO.net
Did you investigate why conservative groups were being targeted?

[Doug Shulman]
Excuse me?

[Trey Gowdy]
Did you investigate…? So you can’t give me a single name. You can’t answer the “who.” Can you tell me the “why”? Why were conservative groups…? Why was the culture such, under your watch, that an employee felt comfortable targeting conservative groups? Did you investigate that?

[Doug Shulman]
From my reading of the report um, I can’t tell if it was political motivation or if it was tone deafs somebody trying to expedite a way —

[Trey Gowdy]
You STILL DON”T KNOW THAT THIS WAS POLITICAL!

[Doug Shulman]
Excuse me?

[Trey Gowdy]
You STILL DON”T KNOW THAT THIS WAS POLITICAL?!

[Doug Shulman]
I defer to the Inspector General.

[Trey Gowdy]
Well, I’ll tell you this Mr. Shulman your predecessor said that he wasn’t sure it was partisan and that requires the listener to be as stupid as the speaker. To utter a comment like that. He just testified that policy positions dictated this. What does that mean to you if this is not Partisan, what does that mean?

[Doug Shulman]
I’m not sure I heard that testimony.

[Trey Gowdy]
We’ll be sure to get you a copy the transcript and you can supplement your testimony, how’s that?

[Doug Shulman]
I’ll be happy – to answer the committee’s question.

[Trey Gowdy]
Do you agree with – do you agree with Dan Pfeiffer that “law is irrelevant? Or do you think it is relevant?

[Doug Shulman]
I think the law is always relevant.

[Trey Gowdy]
Do you think 26 USC 72 14 which provides criminal penalties for this conduct would be relevant? And did you refer the matter to someone with law enforcement investigative jurisdiction.

[Doug Shulman]
Um, I’m not gonna speculate what’s appropriate legally in this matter and um Mr. George knew his operation was looking at I believe –

[Trey Gowdy]
I thought it was an audit – I thought he testified it was an audit and not an investigation – did you refer it for criminal investigation?

[Doug Shulman]
Um, I didn’t refer it, it was already being looked into at the time that it was brought to my attention.

[Trey Gowdy] Source: LYBIO.net
So I wanna be real clear cause my time is out. The only recourse you have when there is an allegation of wrongful conduct on your watch – the only thing you feel comfortable doing is waiting on an inspector general to finish his or her report.

[Doug Shulman]
The general practice is to make sure that the Inspector General look into it.

[Trey Gowdy]
No matter how insidious the conduct if it were an allegation of racial discrimination you would of waited until Mr. George finished his investigation, is that your testimony?

[Doug Shulman]
I’m – I’m really not gonna answer hypotheticals.

[Trey Gowdy]
I’ll tell you what – instead of answering a hypothetical why don’t you answer the case at bar today. If there is an allegation that groups are being discriminated against based on political ideology, are you really gonna wait until the Inspector General finishes his or her report before you take corrective remedial action?

[Doug Shulman]
When I have a fact, I don’t have all the facts and I don’t know the scope and severity – the proper [place].

[Trey Gowdy]
Did you investigate the facts Mr. Shulman? Did you lift a finger to identify the facts?

[Doug Shulman]
Felt very comfortable the facts – the inspector general was gonna run down the facts and once he had it, it would be reported out.

[Trey Gowdy] Source: LYBIO.net
Let the record reflect that’s a NO. I yeild back.

I thank the gentlemen, I know you guys have been there a long time. We appreciate your patience.

Rep. Trey Gowdy Questions Fmr. IRS Commissioner Doug Shulman. I’m really not gonna answer hypotheticals. Complete Full Transcript, Dialogue, Remarks, Saying, Quotes, Words And Text.